Where is the province falling behind?
One of the things we’ve fallen behind on is soil health. For urban readers it isn’t really a thing, but we all eat.
Why aren’t the climate impacts of animal agriculture more of an issue for Ontario?
The beef industry in Ontario is in decline and has been for quite some time. I do know that certainly in my practice I saw a lot of enforcement on manure management. I haven’t seen any evidence that that’s lacking. There are important opportunities to influence what farmers produce because farmers are in a market-driven business. For those who eat meat frequently, the obvious opportunity is not to eat as much or not eat it as often. And that’s a personal choice issue it’s not fair to blame farmers.
Where is the province failing urbanites?
I don’t think this [Ontario] government deserves a lot of criticism. The investment they’re making in transit is incredible – and $100 million was announced [February 4] for home retrofits. That’s incredible, particularly for lower-income people who find the cost of heating a real burden. It’s an opportunity to reduce greenhouse gases, reduce economic stress, increase comfort and health. It has the potential to be really, really useful.
The province has been criticized for spending billions on refurbishing nuclear reactors when we could be getting cheap hydro energy from Quebec. What’s your take?
People tend to forget that in 2005 we had a capacity crisis. The government made the call that it was urgent to increase supply. They didn’t predict the impact of falling electricity consumption and of conservation when oil prices were high. If you add to that how much Ontario has deindustrialized over the last 10 years… there are a lot of good reasons why we got to the place we’re in. But we are going to be in a much more constrained situation in terms of supply once the nuclear plants go down again.
Do you think the province has done enough to support clean energy?
The auditor general made a good point that is worth emphasizing. Because we already have a low-carbon electrical system, the biggest bang for the buck in terms of improving air quality isn’t in the electrical system – it’s in fossil fuels. And if you think about transport and electricity, we have a lot of spare capacity and an awful lot of vehicles running on fossil fuels. If we can electrify the transportation system, we can help solve some of those problems.
So you think there’s no need, then, to shift to 100 per cent renewables if we have nukes?
This is one of the things our office has complained about a number of times. The electrical system isn’t the right focus. Our long-term energy plan should look at all forms of energy consumption. The electrification of vehicles is starting from a small base, for sure, but if you just look at roads, if you just look at power plants, the best results are probably not going to be achieved.
Glen Murray admits we’re not doing as much as we need to on climate change, even though we’re doing a lot. What are your frustrations around climate action?
For Ontario in particular, I think it’s worth reminding your readers how big a deal closing coal plants has been. Yes, it’s had an impact on pricing – although, frankly, the refurbishing of the nukes is more expensive. There’s an impression that electricity prices are going up because of renewables, but that’s a very small piece of the puzzle. In terms of climate, I don’t doubt the commitment of the current government. They’re going as fast as they can, but the general public does not yet understand how urgent the crisis is and how much it’s going to matter to us in the near future. My frustration, if I have any, is on a world scale. There is so much to do and it is so late.
Do we need to call a state of emergency, like World War II?
Glen Murray says that all the time. The first time I heard it I wasn’t sure. Having been to Paris, [I know] he’s right. And the great thing about it is we don’t have to send our sons and daughters to be killed. Maybe we have to walk to work or wear a sweater.
Let’s talk Energy East pipeline. The Ontario Energy Board says it’s not worth the risk. Kathleen Wynne says she supports it….
I’m really not informed on Energy East. I can’t comment on it.
Cap-and-trade has been fraught with problems in Europe. What will you be watching for to make sure we don’t have the same here?
There is no perfect recipe. It’s really hard to get right how you deal with energy-intensive, trade-exposed industries. There has to be an enforcement system to catch and punish [companies not playing by the rules] and take them out of the system. One of the advantages of coming to this now a little bit late is there’s an opportunity not to make those mistakes.
What should the government be doing to protect biodiversity?
The government continues to permit many activities that damage habitat, ranging from urban sprawl in southern Ontario to resource extraction in the North. There are very few safe places for wildlife. All Ontario species, from monarch butterflies to wolves to turtles, need refuge, and many are in decline. One of the best tools we have to conserve biodiversity is our provincial parks. Almost every country on the planet has committed to protecting 17 per cent of their land by 2020. Ontario has only protected about 10 per cent to date, and still permits logging and other harmful activities in some of that. The government can and should make that a priority.
Your hopes for your time as commish?
I’m doing what I can to be careful and pragmatic, and it’s not for me to say what government should do or will do, but at least I can ask questions about important things that are hard for them to ask.
SIZING UP SAXE
Experience 40 years “writing, interpreting, and litigating Ontario’s energy and environmental laws.” Check out back issues of her widely read blog at envirolaw.ca.
Biggest legal win $150 million for municipalities from freeloading industry players not paying their share of blue bin costs.
Record on renewables Former president of Windshare. Started with Ministry of Energy on renewable energy and conservation issues in the 70s, during the big oil shock.
Stayed 14 years in government before going back to school to do her PhD.
Worked at two major Bay Street law firms before founding one of Canada’s top environmental law firms.
Winner of Gold Key Award for exceptional lifetime professional achievement
Avid canoeist, kayaker and cross-country skier.
This interview has been condensed and edited.
ecoholic@nowtoronto.com | @ecoholicnation
